Bindless is pretty much _the_ most important feature we need in WebGPU. Other stuff can be worked around to varying degrees of success, but lack of bindless makes our state changes extremely frequent, which heavily kills performance with how expensive WebGPU makes changing state. The default texture limits without bindless are also way too small for serious applications - just implementing the glTF PBR spec + extensions will blow past them.
I'm really looking forward to getting bindless later down the road, although I expect it to take quite a while.
By the same token, I'm quite surprised that effort is being put into a compatibility mode, when WebGPU is already too old and limiting for a lot of people, and when WebGL(2) is going to have to be maintained by browsers anyways.
> Bindless is pretty much _the_ most important feature we need in WebGPU. Other stuff can be worked around to varying degrees of success, but lack of bindless makes our state changes extremely frequent, which heavily kills performance with how expensive WebGPU makes changing state.
Yes.
This has had a devastating effect on Rust 3D graphics. The main crate for doing 3D graphics in Rust is WGPU. WGPU supports not just WebGPU, but Android, Vulkan, Metal, Direct-X 12, and OpenGL. It makes them all look much like Vulkan. Bevy, Rend3, and Renderling, the next level up, all use WGPU. It's so convenient.
WGPU has lowest common denominator support. If WebGPU can't do something inside a browser, then WGPU probably can't do it on other platforms which could handle it. So WGPU makes your gamer PC perform like a browser or a phone. No bindless, no multiple queues, and somewhat inefficient binding and allocation.
This is one reason we don't see high-performance games written in Rust.
After four years of development, WGPU performance has gone down, not up. When it dropped 21% recently and I pointed that out, some people were very annoyed.[1]
Google pushing bindless forward might help get this unstuck. Although notice that the target date on their whiteboard is December 2026. I'm not sure that game dev in Rust has that much runway left. Three major projects have been cancelled and the main site for Rust game dev stopped updating in June 2024.[2]
> This is one reason we don't see high-performance games written in Rust.
Rendering is _hard_, and Rust is an uncommon toolchain in the gamedev industry. I don't think wgpu has much to do with it. Vulkan via ash and DirectX12 via windows-rs are both great options in Rust.
> After four years of development, WGPU performance has gone down, not up. When it dropped 21% recently and I pointed that out, some people were very annoyed.[1]
Performance isn't most of the wgpu maintainer's (who are paid by Mozilla) priority at the moment. Fixing bugs and implementing missing features so that they can ship WebGPU support in Firefox is more important. The other maintainers are volunteers with no obligation besides finding it enjoyable to work on. Performance can always be improved later, but getting working WebGPU support to users so that websites can start targeting it is crucial. The annoyance is that you were rude about it.
> Google pushing bindless forward might help get this unstuck. Although notice that the target date on their whiteboard is December 2026.
The bindless stuff is basically "developers requested it a ton when we asked for feedback on features they wanted (I was one of those people who gave them feedback), and we had some draft proposals from (iirc) 1-2 different people". It's wanted, but there are still major questions to answer. It's not like this is a set thing they've been developing and are preparing to release. All the features listed are just feedback from users and discussion that took place at the WebGPU face to face recently.
WGPU dev here. I agree with everything JMS55 says here, but I want to avoid a potential misunderstanding. Performance is definitely a priority for WGPU, the open source project. Much of WGPU's audience is very concerned with performance.
My team at Mozilla are active contributors to WGPU. For the moment, when we Mozilla engineers are prioritizing our own work, we are focused on compatibility and safety, because that's what we need most urgently for our use case. Once we have shipped WebGPU in Firefox, we will start putting our efforts into other things like performance, developer experience, and so on.
But WGPU has other contributors with other priorities. For example, WGPU just merged some additions to its nascent ray tracing support. That's not a Mozilla priority, but WGPU took the PR. Similarly for some recent extensions to 64-bit atomics (which I think is used by Bevy for Nanite-like techniques?), and other areas.
WGPU is an open source project. We at Mozilla contribute to the features we need; other people contribute to what they care about; and the overall direction of the project is determined by what capable contributors put in the time to make happen.
> But WGPU has other contributors with other priorities. For example, WGPU just merged some additions to its nascent ray tracing support. That's not a Mozilla priority, but WGPU took the PR. Similarly for some recent extensions to 64-bit atomics (which I think is used by Bevy for Nanite-like techniques?), and other areas.
Yep! The 64-bit atomic stuff let me implement software rasterization for our Nanite-like renderer - it was a huge win. Same for raytracing, I'm using it to develop a RT DI/GI solution for Bevy. Both were really exciting additions.
The question of how performant and featureful wgpu is is mostly just a matter of resources in my view. Like with Bevy, it's up to contributors. The unfortunate reality is that if I'm busy working on Bevy, I don't have any time for wgpu. So I'm thankful for the people who _do_ put in time to wgpu, so that I can continue to improve Bevy.
Is WGPU even a Mozilla project? I think he is just saying that those paid developers (paid by Mozilla) have that priority, and everyone else is volunteer. Not that WGPU is a Firefox project.
There have been a bunch of significant improvements to WGPU's performance over the last few years.
* Before the major rework called "arcanization", `wgpu_core` used a locking design that caused huge amounts of contention in any multi-threaded program. It took write locks so often I doubt you could get much parallelism at all out of it. That's all been ripped out, and we've been evolving steadily towards a more limited and reasonable locking discipline.
* `wgpu_core` used to have a complex system of "suspected resources" and deferred cleanup, apparently to try to reduce the amount of work that needed to be done when a command buffer finished executing on the GPU. This turned out not to actually save any work at all: it did exactly the same amount of bookkeeping, just at a different time. We ripped out this complexity and got big speedups on some test cases.
* `wgpu_core` used to use Rust generics to generate, essentially, a separate copy of its entire code for each backend (Vulkan, Metal, D3D12) that it used. The idea was that the code generator would be able to see exactly what backend types and functions `wgpu_core` was using, inline stuff, optimize, etc. It also put our build times through the roof. So, to see if we could do something about the build times, Wumpf experimented with making the `wgpu_hal` API use dynamic dispatch instead. For reasons that are not clear to me, switching from generics to dynamic dispatch made WGPU faster --- substantially so on some benchmarks.
Animats posts frequently about performance problems they're running into, but when they do it's always this huge pile of unanalyzed data. It's almost as if, they run into a performance problem with their code, and then rather than figuring out what's going on themselves, they throw their whole app over the wall and ask WGPU to debug the problem. That is just not a service we offer.
Tbf, tons of games have been created and are still being created without bindless resource binding. While WebGPU does have some surprising performance bottlenecks around setBindGroup(), details like that hardly make or break a game (if the devs are somewhat competent they'll come up with ways to workaround 3D API limitations - that's how it's always been and always will be - the old batching tricks from the D3D9 era still sometimes make sense, I wonder if people simply forgot about those or don't know them in the first place because it was before their time).
As far as I know, Unity doesn't support bindless either. However thousands of Unity games are released on Steam every year. So it's safe to say performance isn't the main (or major) reason why Rust gamedev isn't getting much traction.
WGPU (https://wgpu.rs/) is one of currently three implementations of the WebGPU specification (the other two being Google's Dawn library used in Chrome, and the implementation in WebKit used in Safari).
The main purpose of WebGPU is to specify a 3D API over the common subset of Metal/D3D12/Vulkan features (e.g. doing an 'on-the-fly translation' of WebGPU API calls to Metal/D3D12/Vulkan API calls, very similar to how (a part of) Proton does an on-the-fly translation of the various D3D API versions to Vulkan.
Tbh I was annoyed reading it too as an open source developer. The people you are talking to are volunteering their time, and you weren’t very considerate of that. Open source software isn’t the same support structure as paid software. You don’t file tickets and expect them to be promptly fixed, unless you do the legwork yourself.
Author of Renderling here. Thanks for the shout out Animats!
Bindless is a game changer - pun intended. It can’t happen soon enough.
Just curious, what are the three major projects that were cancelled?
I also want to mention that folks are shipping high performance games in Rust - the first title that comes to mind is “Tiny Glade” which is breathtakingly gorgeous, though it is a casual game. It does not run on wgpu though, to my knowledge. I may have a different definition of high performance, with lower expectations.
> What are the three major projects that were cancelled?
Here are some:
- LogLog Games [1]. Not happy with Bevy. Not too unhappy about performance, although it's mentioned.
- Moonlight Coffee [2]. Not a major project, but he got as far as loading glTF and displaying the results, then quit. That's a common place to give up.
- Hexops. [3] Found Rust "too hard", switched to Zig.
Tiny Glade is very well done. But, of course, it's a tiny glade. This avoids the scaling problems.
None of those are “major projects” by any definition of the word though. And none of the three has anything to do with wgpu's performance.
Rust for game engine has always been a highly risky endeavor since the ecosystem is much less mature than everything else, and even though things have improved a ton over the past few years, it's still light-years away from the mainstream tools.
Building a complete game ecosystem is very hard and it's not surprising to see that Rust is still struggling.
The nice thing about WebGPU's "compat mode" is that it's designed so browsers don't have to implement it if they don't want to. Chrome is really excited about it; Safari has no plans to implement it, ever.
I agree that compat mode takes up more of the WebGPU standard committee's time than bindless. I'm not sure that's how I would prioritize things. (As a Mozilla engineer, we have more than enough implementation work to do already, so what the committee discusses is sort of beside the point for us...)
> The default texture limits without bindless are also way too small for serious applications
I'm not disagreeing that bindless is needed but it's a bit of hyperbole to claim the texture limits are too small for serious applications given the large list of serious graphics applications that shipped before bindless existed and the large number of serious graphics applications and games still shipping that don't use them.
It's partly because WebGPU has very conservative default texture limits so that they can support old mobile devices, and partly it's a problem for engines that may have a bunch of different bindings and have increasingly hacky workarounds to compile different variants with only the enabled features so that you don't blow past texture limits.
For an idea of bevy's default view and PBR material bindings, see:
They're talking about the 16 sampled texture binding limit which is the same as webgl2. If you look at eg. the list of devices that are stuck with that few texture bindings they don't even support basic GL with compute shaders or vulkan, so they can't even run webgpu in the first place.
Yes. If you're stuck with that limitation, you pack up related textures into a big texture atlas. When you enter a new area, the player sees "Loading..." while the next batch of content is loaded. That was the state of the art 15 years ago. It's kind of dated now.
It only goes to show the limitations of browser 3D APIs, and the huge mistake some folks do for native games using it instead of a proper middleware engines, capable of exposing modern hardware.
I don't necessarily disagree. But I don't agree either. WebGPU has given us as many positives as it has negatives. A lot of our user base is not on modern hardware, as much as other users are.
Part of the challenge of making a general purpose engine is that we can't make choices that specialize to a use case like that. We need to support all the backends, all the rendering features, all the tradeoffs, so that our users don't have to. It's a hard challenge.
We do when there available, but I think the way browsers implement limit bucketing (to combat fingerprinting) means that some users ran into the limit.
I never personally ran into the issue, but I know it's a problem our users have had.
Yeah I went down the rabbit hole of trying to rewrite all our shaders to work on webgpu’s crazy low limits. I’m embarrassed to say how long I worked that problem until I tried requesting higher limits, and it worked on every device we were targeting.
The default limits are like the lowest common denominator and typically way lower than what the device actually supports.
I wish there were a good way to profile WebGPU code. I've seen this (very useful) article[1] on setting up PIX, but I'm ambitious. I want to see everything from draw call timings to flamegraphs of shader code.
Right now I feel like the only way to write efficient WebGPU code is to deeply understand specific GPU architectures. I hope some day there's a dev tools tab that shows me I'm spending too much time sampling a texture or there's a lot of contention on my atomic add.
Timestamp queries will give you essentially time spans you can use for profiling, but anything more than that and you really want to use a dedicated tool from your vendor like NSight, RGP, IGA, XCode, or PIX.
> Right now I feel like the only way to write efficient WebGPU code is to deeply understand specific GPU architectures. I hope some day there's a dev tools tab that shows me I'm spending too much time sampling a texture or there's a lot of contention on my atomic add.
It's kind of the nature of the beast. Something that's cheap on one GPU might be more expensive on another, or might be fine because you can hide the latency even if it's slow, or the CPU overhead negates any GPU wins, etc. The APIs that give you the data for what you're asking are also vendor-specific.
WebGPU does have line primitives of course, but only the type of lines that's supported in the underlying 3D APIs (e.g. 1-pixel wide). Since the whole purpose of WebGPU is to provide a thin API over the common feature set of D3D12, Metal and Vulkan that's totally expected though.
Font drawing is very much out of scope for a 3D API, that's something you (or a library) would implement on top of WebGPU. Likewise for line drawing, the API may expose some simple line primitives that the hardware supports natively, but if you want anything fancier then you're expected to do it yourself with shaders which is already possible in WebGPU.
The 3D API is just meant to be a minimal portable abstraction over common low-level hardware features, composing those features into higher level constructs is intentionally left as an exercise for the user.
Asking for lines is like asking for your CPU to support macros. The GPU is low-level, lines are high level. You build the high level on top of the low-level with libraries etc...
Same. I do a ton of 2D map stuff and it’s always quite uncomfortable to do in shaders or very slow in a Canvas context.
The last time I tried with pixi.js the problem was smoothly zooming polygons with a constant width border thicker than hairline. Doing that was basically just generating new textures on every frame.
"This is the next step in the standardization process, and it comes with stronger guarantees of stability and intellectual property protection."
I understand stability, and in the general sense I see that people feel they need to protect their IP, but in this specific case what is meant by "intellectual property protection"?
W3C generally requires Working Group participants to provide IPR licensing commitments for the spec in question [0]. As far as I understand, higher level of specification maturity implies stronger level of obligations, though the specifics of what specifically changes when were never clear to me.
Where is this comment coming from? WebGPU enables compute shaders, and there are applications in anything that uses a GPU, from ML to physics to audio to … you name it. What is making you think game engines would be the only users? I bet a lot of companies are looking forward to being able to use compute shaders in JS apps and web pages.
> Godot has had zero development for WebGPU support.
Why would Godot be an indicator? I love Godot and their efforts, but it’s less than 1% of game engine market share, and a much smaller less well funded team. Of course they’re not on the bleeding edge. Unity is closer to 30% market share and is actively engaging with WebGPU, so it seems like you’re downplaying and contradicting a strong indicator.
> WebGPU enables compute shaders, and there are applications in anything that uses a GPU, from ML to physics to audio to … you name it.
I know.
If you have to go through a giant product like Unity for example to use WebGPU because Apple will essentially have its own flavor of WebGPU just like it has its own flavor of everything, is it really cross platform?
Does Apple support Vulkan? No. It was invented for middlewares!
Apple has a flag to toggle on WebGPU on iOS today. I know dude. What does that really mean?
They have such a poor record of support for gamey things on Mobile Safari. No immersive WebXR, a long history of breaking WASM, a long history of poor WebGL 2 and texture compression support. Why is this going to be any different?
Apple submitted Metal as a web spec and they turned this into WebGPU and Apple got everything they asked for to avoid apple going rogue again. The fear that Apple of all companies is going to drop WebGPU support is really not based in reality.
I’m still not sure what the point is. WebGPU is an API, is that that you mean by middleware? What’s the issue? Apple will do their own thing, and they might not allow WebGPU on Safari. What bearing does that have on what people using Linux, Windows, Firefox, and Chrome should do? And where exactly is this cross platform claim you’re referring to?
The issue is, it's likely that a company with $2 BILLION spent on product development and a very deep relationship with Apple, like Unity, will have success using WebGPU the way it is intended, and nobody else will. So then, in conclusion, WebGPU is designed for Unity, not you and me. Unity is designed for you and me. Are you getting it?
> The issue is, it's likely that a company with $2 BILLION spent on product development and a very deep relationship with Apple, like Unity, will have success using WebGPU the way it is intended, and nobody else will.
Not really. Bevy https://bevyengine.org uses WebGPU exclusively, and we have unfortunately little funding - definitely not $2 billion. A lot of the stuff proposed in the article (bindless, 64-bit atomics, etc) is stuff we (and others) proposed :)
If anything, WebGPU the spec could really use _more_ funding and developer time from experienced graphics developers.
Why are people downvoting? The idea of Great High Performance Graphics Effortlessly on All Platforms is very appealing. It is fundamentally empathetic. It is an opium to game developers whose real antagonist is Apple and Nintendo, and who want a more organic journey in game development than Unity Learn. Is it a realizable goal? Time will tell.
Everyone should be advocating for more focused efforts, but then. Are you going to say, Bevy is better than Godot? It’s subjective right? Open source efforts are already spread so thin. An inability to rally behind one engine means achieving 2013’s Unity 5 level of functionality is years away.
Looking at it critically, in fact much effort in the open source ecosystem is even anti games. For example emulators used to pirate Nintendo Switch games have more mature multiplatform graphics engine implementations than Godot and Bevy do. It would be nice if that weren’t true, you might tell me in some sense that I am wrong, but c’mon. It’s crazy how much community effort goes into piracy compared to the stuff that would sincerely benefit game developers.
WebGPU is authored by giant media companies, and will have purposefully hobbled support by the most obnoxious of them all, Apple - the one platform where it is kind of impractical to pirate stuff, but also, where it is kind of impractical to deliver games through the browser. Precisely because of the empathetic, yet ultimately false, promises of WebGPU.
You haven't substantiated why nobody else could make use of WebGPU. Are Google the only ones who can understand Beacons because they make $300B/year? GPU is hard, but it doesn't take billions to figure out.
Web video editor(https://chillin.online), we are eagerly looking forward to the WebGPU API maturing and being extended to all major browsers, enabling faster rendering, bringing more effects, and facilitating the rendering and editing of 3D assets.
The number 1 use of WebGL is Google Maps by several orders of magnitude over any other use. At some point they'll likely switch to WebGPU making it the number 1 use of Google Maps. Google went over what this enables when they shipped it. Lots of features including being able to highlight relevant roads that change depending on what you searched for.
When I visit a Construct 3 Ultra Pixel Survive on Mobile Safari on the latest production iOS with either WebGPU enabled and disabled, I only see black:
Which Construct 3 game should I try on Mobile Safari?
I know there are other game engines. Supporting Mobile Safari is very very hard. It has its own flavor of everything. I would never speak in absolutes about some web standard and how it will work on Mobile Safari.
Construct 3 doesn’t work with WebGPU disabled either. I’m sure it has official support for Mobile Safari, just not official enough to work when someone visits a Construct 3 experience.
I’m not dunking on the engine. It’s just to say, well this is what graphics programming in browser is: making shit work on mobile Safari.
It can absolutely be used for bad, and I know many sites do use it for bad. However, it does good as well, and I think it's important to develop but also it should come with similar permission requests that use of microphone or camera do.
I do research and develop ANN's for data analysis within chemistry. Making it possible for less tech literate people to visit a site, select a model, load their dataset, and get answers, is quite handy. The best part is because I can use their hardware to do it all, it all stays private, no one has to upload any sensitive research data etc. and I don't have to ship to various devices etc. I know if they have a mainstream updated browser they can likely use the tool. No endless requests for help, no mystery issues to solve, things just work.
Honest question: Can someone explain to me why people are excited about WebGPU and WASM and similar technologies?
To me, one of the greatest things about the web is that the DOM is malleable in that you can right click -> view source -> change things. This is dead in an era where the server just sends you a compiled WASM dll.
It seems to me that the inevitable result of things like WASM and WebGPU will be "rich media web 4.0 applications" that are just DRM, crypto miners, and spyware compiled so that they're more difficult to circumvent, and delivered via the browser. An excuse to write web apps with poor performance because "well the user just needs a stronger GPU". It seems like an express train back to the bad old days of every website being written in flash.
I honestly cannot see the upsides of these technologies. Is it gaming? Why would I want to play a 3D game in my fucking browser of all places? That's a strict downgrade in almost every way I can think of. Why would anyone want that? Is it "AI"? Why would I want to run an LLM in the browser, I could just run it natively for better performance?
All I can see and have seen over the last several years is a steady parade of new technologies that will make the internet (and in some cases the lives of every day people) objectively worse while enriching a handful of big tech douchebags.
Why are we going down this path? Who is asking for this stuff? Why the fuck would I want to expose my GPU to a website?
> Why would I want to play a 3D game in my fucking browser of all places?
To provide users a way to instantly play a game without having to download all assets at once. Give developers a potential way to avoid app store royalties of up to 30% on desktop or mobile. With wgpu in rust, you can also target WebGPU as a shared 3d runtime that will run across OS's natively rather than having to target Vulkan, Metal, and DirectX.
> Why would I want to run an LLM in the browser, I could just run it natively for better performance?
What about users who don't know how to download a model and run it locally? I would argue this is the vast majority of users in the world. Also, this specific use case is probably not going to be generalized with WebGPU yet due to model sizes, but rather other APIs like the Prompt API in Chrome which will use Gemini Nano embedded into the browser (assume it will eventually get standardized). https://developer.chrome.com/docs/ai/built-in-apis
I agree with you that WASM and WebGPU will be used for adware, targeting, and spyware - but if you don't want to use them, you should disable them in your browser settings - there's definitely value add for other users even if you can't see any benefits.
Browsers will never run games that aren't toys or use very simple assets in a way that doesn't completely suck. High quality assets need gigabytes of data. You either require users to download all the assets upfront (the thing we're trying to avoid) or streaming the assets dynamically.
You end up having to re-implement steam to keep a local copy of the assets on the client device yourself, expect browsers to do the same to manage caching the gigabytes of data transparently, or design your game around a very slow storage device or use tiny assets.
Flash games worked because they fit very nicely into the 'tiny assets' category.
> I don’t want to download a random executable from some unknown source
Why would you do that?
---
There's few applications that warrant having direct access to the GPU and other devices. And for those, a native app would be a much efficient way (for the user).
yeah but users don't care about technical efficiency, they care about having seamless experiences that aren't interrupted by long downloads, app/context switching, and loading screens.
For that matter, why would you expose your CPU to a website? Or your monitor? It could show you anything! ;)
Maybe you are not be aware of the number of good web apps that use some WebGL under the hood? You might be using office applications in your browser already that use WebGL when it’s available, and the reason is it makes things faster, more responsive, more scalable, and more efficient. Same would go for WebGPU.
There’s no reason to imagine that the web will do bad things with your resources that you didn’t ask for and don’t have control over. There have been hiccups in the past, but they got fixed. Awareness is higher now, and if there are hiccups, they’ll get fixed.
> There’s no reason to imagine that the web will do bad things with your resources that you didn’t ask for and don’t have control over.
Read some security update news from browser vendors and vulnerability researcher posts. There's some weak signals about vendors acknowledging the difficulty of securing the enormous attack surface of browsers built on unsafe foundations, eg MS "enhanced security mode" and Apple "lockdown mode".
I don't mind the browser using the GPU to speed up graphical operations. But I do mind random sites and apps going further than that. Native apps have better access, but there's an higher selection criteria than just opening a URL.
Why make things perform worse when they can perform better?
Why shouldn't I be able to make an application that compiles to the Windows, macOS, and Linux desktops and also to the browser? This one does: https://bandysc.github.io/AvaloniaVisualBasic6/
Why do you think wasm is harder to circumvent? The only way to instantiate a wasm module in the browser is through (drum roll) javascript. Install noscript if you're worried. The days of view source -> edit are basically over anyway due to every site's 1MB+ minified JS blobs.
> Why would I want to run an LLM in the browser, I could just run it natively for better performance?
Why would you try out a new app in a sandboxed browser, when instead you could give it complete access to your entire computer?
Sandboxing is about preventing code from accessing data it's not supposed to. Data like files or memory belonging to other tabs or other processes. Or data streams like your webcam or microphone. Data outside of its, well, sandbox.
So how are compute shaders accessing data they're not supposed to? How do you think they're escaping the sandbox?
It seems like you're just making up your own definitions now because you don't like the tech. What do think a sandbox is, exactly? And what do you think Chrome's GPU sandbox does, if it's not a sandbox?
why would you want to expose your cpu to a website? why would you want to expose your keyboard to a website? why would you want to use a website at all? why don’t you go outside, read a book, look at a duck, and pick a flower instead? do we exist just to complain? is this meaning?
You should try Chillin(https://chillin.online), browser-based video editor. Powered by WebGL, WASM, and WebCodecs, Chillin provides a full suite of video editing capabilities on the web. Trust me, Chillin is smoother than most native video editors, even on mobile. I believe Chillin can leverage WebGPU to bring even more powerful rendering features.
Yes, running LLMs on the web may not have significant advantages due to the speed limitations, but other models, such as those for bg removal, speech-to-subtitles, and translation, could become practical and efficient thanks to WebGPU.
Bindless is pretty much _the_ most important feature we need in WebGPU. Other stuff can be worked around to varying degrees of success, but lack of bindless makes our state changes extremely frequent, which heavily kills performance with how expensive WebGPU makes changing state. The default texture limits without bindless are also way too small for serious applications - just implementing the glTF PBR spec + extensions will blow past them.
I'm really looking forward to getting bindless later down the road, although I expect it to take quite a while.
By the same token, I'm quite surprised that effort is being put into a compatibility mode, when WebGPU is already too old and limiting for a lot of people, and when WebGL(2) is going to have to be maintained by browsers anyways.
> Bindless is pretty much _the_ most important feature we need in WebGPU. Other stuff can be worked around to varying degrees of success, but lack of bindless makes our state changes extremely frequent, which heavily kills performance with how expensive WebGPU makes changing state.
Yes.
This has had a devastating effect on Rust 3D graphics. The main crate for doing 3D graphics in Rust is WGPU. WGPU supports not just WebGPU, but Android, Vulkan, Metal, Direct-X 12, and OpenGL. It makes them all look much like Vulkan. Bevy, Rend3, and Renderling, the next level up, all use WGPU. It's so convenient.
WGPU has lowest common denominator support. If WebGPU can't do something inside a browser, then WGPU probably can't do it on other platforms which could handle it. So WGPU makes your gamer PC perform like a browser or a phone. No bindless, no multiple queues, and somewhat inefficient binding and allocation.
This is one reason we don't see high-performance games written in Rust.
After four years of development, WGPU performance has gone down, not up. When it dropped 21% recently and I pointed that out, some people were very annoyed.[1]
Google pushing bindless forward might help get this unstuck. Although notice that the target date on their whiteboard is December 2026. I'm not sure that game dev in Rust has that much runway left. Three major projects have been cancelled and the main site for Rust game dev stopped updating in June 2024.[2]
[1] https://github.com/gfx-rs/wgpu/issues/6434
[2] https://gamedev.rs/
> This is one reason we don't see high-performance games written in Rust.
Rendering is _hard_, and Rust is an uncommon toolchain in the gamedev industry. I don't think wgpu has much to do with it. Vulkan via ash and DirectX12 via windows-rs are both great options in Rust.
> After four years of development, WGPU performance has gone down, not up. When it dropped 21% recently and I pointed that out, some people were very annoyed.[1]
Performance isn't most of the wgpu maintainer's (who are paid by Mozilla) priority at the moment. Fixing bugs and implementing missing features so that they can ship WebGPU support in Firefox is more important. The other maintainers are volunteers with no obligation besides finding it enjoyable to work on. Performance can always be improved later, but getting working WebGPU support to users so that websites can start targeting it is crucial. The annoyance is that you were rude about it.
> Google pushing bindless forward might help get this unstuck. Although notice that the target date on their whiteboard is December 2026.
The bindless stuff is basically "developers requested it a ton when we asked for feedback on features they wanted (I was one of those people who gave them feedback), and we had some draft proposals from (iirc) 1-2 different people". It's wanted, but there are still major questions to answer. It's not like this is a set thing they've been developing and are preparing to release. All the features listed are just feedback from users and discussion that took place at the WebGPU face to face recently.
WGPU dev here. I agree with everything JMS55 says here, but I want to avoid a potential misunderstanding. Performance is definitely a priority for WGPU, the open source project. Much of WGPU's audience is very concerned with performance.
My team at Mozilla are active contributors to WGPU. For the moment, when we Mozilla engineers are prioritizing our own work, we are focused on compatibility and safety, because that's what we need most urgently for our use case. Once we have shipped WebGPU in Firefox, we will start putting our efforts into other things like performance, developer experience, and so on.
But WGPU has other contributors with other priorities. For example, WGPU just merged some additions to its nascent ray tracing support. That's not a Mozilla priority, but WGPU took the PR. Similarly for some recent extensions to 64-bit atomics (which I think is used by Bevy for Nanite-like techniques?), and other areas.
WGPU is an open source project. We at Mozilla contribute to the features we need; other people contribute to what they care about; and the overall direction of the project is determined by what capable contributors put in the time to make happen.
> But WGPU has other contributors with other priorities. For example, WGPU just merged some additions to its nascent ray tracing support. That's not a Mozilla priority, but WGPU took the PR. Similarly for some recent extensions to 64-bit atomics (which I think is used by Bevy for Nanite-like techniques?), and other areas.
Yep! The 64-bit atomic stuff let me implement software rasterization for our Nanite-like renderer - it was a huge win. Same for raytracing, I'm using it to develop a RT DI/GI solution for Bevy. Both were really exciting additions.
The question of how performant and featureful wgpu is is mostly just a matter of resources in my view. Like with Bevy, it's up to contributors. The unfortunate reality is that if I'm busy working on Bevy, I don't have any time for wgpu. So I'm thankful for the people who _do_ put in time to wgpu, so that I can continue to improve Bevy.
> implementing missing features so that they can ship WebGPU support in Firefox
Sounds like WGPU, the project, should be detached from Firefox?
To me the priority of shipping WGPU on FF is kind of mind-boggling, as I consider the browser irrelevant at this point in time.
Just to avoid potential confusion: WebGPU and WGPU are different things.
Is WGPU even a Mozilla project? I think he is just saying that those paid developers (paid by Mozilla) have that priority, and everyone else is volunteer. Not that WGPU is a Firefox project.
Thanks, I checked the WGPU project's roots and you're right - it's not Mozilla's project, per-se.
Yes, this.
The irrelevant browser is the one paying developers to build wgpu though…
There have been a bunch of significant improvements to WGPU's performance over the last few years.
* Before the major rework called "arcanization", `wgpu_core` used a locking design that caused huge amounts of contention in any multi-threaded program. It took write locks so often I doubt you could get much parallelism at all out of it. That's all been ripped out, and we've been evolving steadily towards a more limited and reasonable locking discipline.
* `wgpu_core` used to have a complex system of "suspected resources" and deferred cleanup, apparently to try to reduce the amount of work that needed to be done when a command buffer finished executing on the GPU. This turned out not to actually save any work at all: it did exactly the same amount of bookkeeping, just at a different time. We ripped out this complexity and got big speedups on some test cases.
* `wgpu_core` used to use Rust generics to generate, essentially, a separate copy of its entire code for each backend (Vulkan, Metal, D3D12) that it used. The idea was that the code generator would be able to see exactly what backend types and functions `wgpu_core` was using, inline stuff, optimize, etc. It also put our build times through the roof. So, to see if we could do something about the build times, Wumpf experimented with making the `wgpu_hal` API use dynamic dispatch instead. For reasons that are not clear to me, switching from generics to dynamic dispatch made WGPU faster --- substantially so on some benchmarks.
Animats posts frequently about performance problems they're running into, but when they do it's always this huge pile of unanalyzed data. It's almost as if, they run into a performance problem with their code, and then rather than figuring out what's going on themselves, they throw their whole app over the wall and ask WGPU to debug the problem. That is just not a service we offer.
Tbf, tons of games have been created and are still being created without bindless resource binding. While WebGPU does have some surprising performance bottlenecks around setBindGroup(), details like that hardly make or break a game (if the devs are somewhat competent they'll come up with ways to workaround 3D API limitations - that's how it's always been and always will be - the old batching tricks from the D3D9 era still sometimes make sense, I wonder if people simply forgot about those or don't know them in the first place because it was before their time).
As far as I know, Unity doesn't support bindless either. However thousands of Unity games are released on Steam every year. So it's safe to say performance isn't the main (or major) reason why Rust gamedev isn't getting much traction.
That limits Unity's scene size. See [1].
[1] https://discussions.unity.com/t/gpu-bindless-resources-suppo...
I thought WGPU only supported WebGPU, and then there were translation libraries (akin to Proton) to run WebGPU over Vulkan.
Does it directly, internally, support Vulkan instead of on-the-fly translation from WebGPU to VK?
WGPU (https://wgpu.rs/) is one of currently three implementations of the WebGPU specification (the other two being Google's Dawn library used in Chrome, and the implementation in WebKit used in Safari).
The main purpose of WebGPU is to specify a 3D API over the common subset of Metal/D3D12/Vulkan features (e.g. doing an 'on-the-fly translation' of WebGPU API calls to Metal/D3D12/Vulkan API calls, very similar to how (a part of) Proton does an on-the-fly translation of the various D3D API versions to Vulkan.
Tbh I was annoyed reading it too as an open source developer. The people you are talking to are volunteering their time, and you weren’t very considerate of that. Open source software isn’t the same support structure as paid software. You don’t file tickets and expect them to be promptly fixed, unless you do the legwork yourself.
Author of Renderling here. Thanks for the shout out Animats!
Bindless is a game changer - pun intended. It can’t happen soon enough.
Just curious, what are the three major projects that were cancelled?
I also want to mention that folks are shipping high performance games in Rust - the first title that comes to mind is “Tiny Glade” which is breathtakingly gorgeous, though it is a casual game. It does not run on wgpu though, to my knowledge. I may have a different definition of high performance, with lower expectations.
> What are the three major projects that were cancelled?
Here are some:
- LogLog Games [1]. Not happy with Bevy. Not too unhappy about performance, although it's mentioned.
- Moonlight Coffee [2]. Not a major project, but he got as far as loading glTF and displaying the results, then quit. That's a common place to give up.
- Hexops. [3] Found Rust "too hard", switched to Zig.
Tiny Glade is very well done. But, of course, it's a tiny glade. This avoids the scaling problems.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40172033
[2] https://www.gamedev.net/blogs/entry/2294178-abandoning-the-r...
[3] https://devlog.hexops.com/2021/increasing-my-contribution-to...
Tiny glade isn’t tiny on the rendering side. It does gorgeous, detailed landscapes.
None of those are “major projects” by any definition of the word though. And none of the three has anything to do with wgpu's performance.
Rust for game engine has always been a highly risky endeavor since the ecosystem is much less mature than everything else, and even though things have improved a ton over the past few years, it's still light-years away from the mainstream tools.
Building a complete game ecosystem is very hard and it's not surprising to see that Rust is still struggling.
The tone of the thread was perfectly fine until you made a passive aggressive comment
The nice thing about WebGPU's "compat mode" is that it's designed so browsers don't have to implement it if they don't want to. Chrome is really excited about it; Safari has no plans to implement it, ever.
I agree that compat mode takes up more of the WebGPU standard committee's time than bindless. I'm not sure that's how I would prioritize things. (As a Mozilla engineer, we have more than enough implementation work to do already, so what the committee discusses is sort of beside the point for us...)
What would be really helpful is if, once the bindless proposal <https://hackmd.io/PCwnjLyVSqmLfTRSqH0viA?view> gets merged into the spec repo <https://github.com/gpuweb/gpuweb/tree/main/proposals>, a contributor could start adapting what WGPU has now to match the proposal. Implementation experience would be incredibly valuable feedback for the committee.
> The default texture limits without bindless are also way too small for serious applications
I'm not disagreeing that bindless is needed but it's a bit of hyperbole to claim the texture limits are too small for serious applications given the large list of serious graphics applications that shipped before bindless existed and the large number of serious graphics applications and games still shipping that don't use them.
It's partly because WebGPU has very conservative default texture limits so that they can support old mobile devices, and partly it's a problem for engines that may have a bunch of different bindings and have increasingly hacky workarounds to compile different variants with only the enabled features so that you don't blow past texture limits.
For an idea of bevy's default view and PBR material bindings, see:
* https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy/blob/main/crates/bevy_pbr...
* https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy/blob/main/crates/bevy_pbr...
They're talking about the 16 sampled texture binding limit which is the same as webgl2. If you look at eg. the list of devices that are stuck with that few texture bindings they don't even support basic GL with compute shaders or vulkan, so they can't even run webgpu in the first place.
Yes. If you're stuck with that limitation, you pack up related textures into a big texture atlas. When you enter a new area, the player sees "Loading..." while the next batch of content is loaded. That was the state of the art 15 years ago. It's kind of dated now.
It only goes to show the limitations of browser 3D APIs, and the huge mistake some folks do for native games using it instead of a proper middleware engines, capable of exposing modern hardware.
I don't necessarily disagree. But I don't agree either. WebGPU has given us as many positives as it has negatives. A lot of our user base is not on modern hardware, as much as other users are.
Part of the challenge of making a general purpose engine is that we can't make choices that specialize to a use case like that. We need to support all the backends, all the rendering features, all the tradeoffs, so that our users don't have to. It's a hard challenge.
Basically the goal of any middleware engine, since the dawn of time in the games industry.
You don't have to settle for the default limits. Simply request more.
We do when there available, but I think the way browsers implement limit bucketing (to combat fingerprinting) means that some users ran into the limit.
I never personally ran into the issue, but I know it's a problem our users have had.
That makes sense. I bet the WebGPU WG would be interested in hearing about that experience. They might be able to make changes to the buckets.
Yeah I went down the rabbit hole of trying to rewrite all our shaders to work on webgpu’s crazy low limits. I’m embarrassed to say how long I worked that problem until I tried requesting higher limits, and it worked on every device we were targeting.
The default limits are like the lowest common denominator and typically way lower than what the device actually supports.
Linux support please!
Any word on when it'll be supported on Linux without a flag?
My guess is when someone one who cares about Linux submits a pull request to support it.
I wish there were a good way to profile WebGPU code. I've seen this (very useful) article[1] on setting up PIX, but I'm ambitious. I want to see everything from draw call timings to flamegraphs of shader code.
Right now I feel like the only way to write efficient WebGPU code is to deeply understand specific GPU architectures. I hope some day there's a dev tools tab that shows me I'm spending too much time sampling a texture or there's a lot of contention on my atomic add.
[1]: https://toji.dev/webgpu-profiling/pix.html
Can forget about it.
Developer tooling for debugging 3D Web APIs has been a continuous request since WebGL 1.0, from 2011.
Until now the only thing that ever came out of it was SpectorJS and it shows its age.
For a while Firefox did have a debugger, that they eventually removed from developer tools.
You are left with writing the application twice, so that can make use of modern native debugging tools for graphics programming.
Timestamp queries will give you essentially time spans you can use for profiling, but anything more than that and you really want to use a dedicated tool from your vendor like NSight, RGP, IGA, XCode, or PIX.
> Right now I feel like the only way to write efficient WebGPU code is to deeply understand specific GPU architectures. I hope some day there's a dev tools tab that shows me I'm spending too much time sampling a texture or there's a lot of contention on my atomic add.
It's kind of the nature of the beast. Something that's cheap on one GPU might be more expensive on another, or might be fine because you can hide the latency even if it's slow, or the CPU overhead negates any GPU wins, etc. The APIs that give you the data for what you're asking are also vendor-specific.
I could use more 2-d line support for CAD applications as well as font drawing.
WebGPU does have line primitives of course, but only the type of lines that's supported in the underlying 3D APIs (e.g. 1-pixel wide). Since the whole purpose of WebGPU is to provide a thin API over the common feature set of D3D12, Metal and Vulkan that's totally expected though.
Font drawing is very much out of scope for a 3D API, that's something you (or a library) would implement on top of WebGPU. Likewise for line drawing, the API may expose some simple line primitives that the hardware supports natively, but if you want anything fancier then you're expected to do it yourself with shaders which is already possible in WebGPU.
The 3D API is just meant to be a minimal portable abstraction over common low-level hardware features, composing those features into higher level constructs is intentionally left as an exercise for the user.
I mean, they are extending support for Canvas2D, which from what I believe would allow for easier text rendering.
Asking for lines is like asking for your CPU to support macros. The GPU is low-level, lines are high level. You build the high level on top of the low-level with libraries etc...
The Canvas2D interop feature should make it very easy to draw text to a 2D canvas and then pull that into WebGPU as a texture.
Same. I do a ton of 2D map stuff and it’s always quite uncomfortable to do in shaders or very slow in a Canvas context.
The last time I tried with pixi.js the problem was smoothly zooming polygons with a constant width border thicker than hairline. Doing that was basically just generating new textures on every frame.
Just out of curiosity, what is uncomfortable about writing shaders, in your opinion?
debugging
They say:
"This is the next step in the standardization process, and it comes with stronger guarantees of stability and intellectual property protection."
I understand stability, and in the general sense I see that people feel they need to protect their IP, but in this specific case what is meant by "intellectual property protection"?
W3C generally requires Working Group participants to provide IPR licensing commitments for the spec in question [0]. As far as I understand, higher level of specification maturity implies stronger level of obligations, though the specifics of what specifically changes when were never clear to me.
[0] https://www.w3.org/policies/patent-policy/#sec-Requirements
I think it means protection from intellectual property claims in the future.
Being spun off to a different company.
Whom is WebGPU for, besides Unity?
Responding to your pre-edited comment.
> whom is WebGPU for? […] it’s a huge rigamarole.
Where is this comment coming from? WebGPU enables compute shaders, and there are applications in anything that uses a GPU, from ML to physics to audio to … you name it. What is making you think game engines would be the only users? I bet a lot of companies are looking forward to being able to use compute shaders in JS apps and web pages.
> Godot has had zero development for WebGPU support.
Why would Godot be an indicator? I love Godot and their efforts, but it’s less than 1% of game engine market share, and a much smaller less well funded team. Of course they’re not on the bleeding edge. Unity is closer to 30% market share and is actively engaging with WebGPU, so it seems like you’re downplaying and contradicting a strong indicator.
I edited my comment.
> WebGPU enables compute shaders, and there are applications in anything that uses a GPU, from ML to physics to audio to … you name it.
I know.
If you have to go through a giant product like Unity for example to use WebGPU because Apple will essentially have its own flavor of WebGPU just like it has its own flavor of everything, is it really cross platform?
Does Apple support Vulkan? No. It was invented for middlewares!
Apple has a flag to toggle on WebGPU on iOS today. I know dude. What does that really mean?
They have such a poor record of support for gamey things on Mobile Safari. No immersive WebXR, a long history of breaking WASM, a long history of poor WebGL 2 and texture compression support. Why is this going to be any different?
> because Apple will essentially have its own flavor of WebGPU
Apple's WebGPU implementation in Safari is entirely spec compliant, and this time they've actually been faster than Firefox.
I wish Apple made a standalone Webgpu.framework spinning it off of WebKit so that apps can link to it directly instead of having to link to Dawn/wgpu.
Apple submitted Metal as a web spec and they turned this into WebGPU and Apple got everything they asked for to avoid apple going rogue again. The fear that Apple of all companies is going to drop WebGPU support is really not based in reality.
I’m still not sure what the point is. WebGPU is an API, is that that you mean by middleware? What’s the issue? Apple will do their own thing, and they might not allow WebGPU on Safari. What bearing does that have on what people using Linux, Windows, Firefox, and Chrome should do? And where exactly is this cross platform claim you’re referring to?
> Apple will do their own thing, and they might not allow WebGPU on Safari.
Safari has WebGPU support today, albeit behind a feature flag until it's fully baked. https://imgur.com/a/b3spVWd
Not sure if this is good, but animometer shows an Avg Frame time of ~25.5 ms on a Mac Studio M1 Max with Safari 18.2 (20620.1.16.11.6). https://webgpu.github.io/webgpu-samples/sample/animometer/
The issue is, it's likely that a company with $2 BILLION spent on product development and a very deep relationship with Apple, like Unity, will have success using WebGPU the way it is intended, and nobody else will. So then, in conclusion, WebGPU is designed for Unity, not you and me. Unity is designed for you and me. Are you getting it?
> The issue is, it's likely that a company with $2 BILLION spent on product development and a very deep relationship with Apple, like Unity, will have success using WebGPU the way it is intended, and nobody else will.
Not really. Bevy https://bevyengine.org uses WebGPU exclusively, and we have unfortunately little funding - definitely not $2 billion. A lot of the stuff proposed in the article (bindless, 64-bit atomics, etc) is stuff we (and others) proposed :)
If anything, WebGPU the spec could really use _more_ funding and developer time from experienced graphics developers.
I agree with you, Bevy is a worthy cause.
Why are people downvoting? The idea of Great High Performance Graphics Effortlessly on All Platforms is very appealing. It is fundamentally empathetic. It is an opium to game developers whose real antagonist is Apple and Nintendo, and who want a more organic journey in game development than Unity Learn. Is it a realizable goal? Time will tell.
Everyone should be advocating for more focused efforts, but then. Are you going to say, Bevy is better than Godot? It’s subjective right? Open source efforts are already spread so thin. An inability to rally behind one engine means achieving 2013’s Unity 5 level of functionality is years away.
Looking at it critically, in fact much effort in the open source ecosystem is even anti games. For example emulators used to pirate Nintendo Switch games have more mature multiplatform graphics engine implementations than Godot and Bevy do. It would be nice if that weren’t true, you might tell me in some sense that I am wrong, but c’mon. It’s crazy how much community effort goes into piracy compared to the stuff that would sincerely benefit game developers.
WebGPU is authored by giant media companies, and will have purposefully hobbled support by the most obnoxious of them all, Apple - the one platform where it is kind of impractical to pirate stuff, but also, where it is kind of impractical to deliver games through the browser. Precisely because of the empathetic, yet ultimately false, promises of WebGPU.
You haven't substantiated why nobody else could make use of WebGPU. Are Google the only ones who can understand Beacons because they make $300B/year? GPU is hard, but it doesn't take billions to figure out.
There are already open source projects making use of WebGPU, e.g. wgpu.
[dead]
Web video editor(https://chillin.online), we are eagerly looking forward to the WebGPU API maturing and being extended to all major browsers, enabling faster rendering, bringing more effects, and facilitating the rendering and editing of 3D assets.
The number 1 use of WebGL is Google Maps by several orders of magnitude over any other use. At some point they'll likely switch to WebGPU making it the number 1 use of Google Maps. Google went over what this enables when they shipped it. Lots of features including being able to highlight relevant roads that change depending on what you searched for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrLyZ24UcRE
Apple maps and others also use it
Devs in the future? There was a long time between when WebGL2 released and when it finally worked "everywhere" too.
Our browser based game engine Construct (https://www.construct.net) supports rendering with both WebGL and WebGPU.
When I visit a Construct 3 Ultra Pixel Survive on Mobile Safari on the latest production iOS with either WebGPU enabled and disabled, I only see black:
https://www.construct.net/en/free-online-games/ultra-pixel-s...
Which Construct 3 game should I try on Mobile Safari?
I know there are other game engines. Supporting Mobile Safari is very very hard. It has its own flavor of everything. I would never speak in absolutes about some web standard and how it will work on Mobile Safari.
Runs great on Android!
Then you agree that WebGPU isn't for Construct, it's for Unity.
No. How does that follow?
You realize that WebGPU has not shipped in Safari right? There's a reason it's still behind a developer flag. It's not finished.
Construct 3 doesn’t work with WebGPU disabled either. I’m sure it has official support for Mobile Safari, just not official enough to work when someone visits a Construct 3 experience.
I’m not dunking on the engine. It’s just to say, well this is what graphics programming in browser is: making shit work on mobile Safari.
I'm curious why supporting ML algorithms is important inside browser ? Will my machine be improperly utilized by the sites I visit ?
It can absolutely be used for bad, and I know many sites do use it for bad. However, it does good as well, and I think it's important to develop but also it should come with similar permission requests that use of microphone or camera do.
I do research and develop ANN's for data analysis within chemistry. Making it possible for less tech literate people to visit a site, select a model, load their dataset, and get answers, is quite handy. The best part is because I can use their hardware to do it all, it all stays private, no one has to upload any sensitive research data etc. and I don't have to ship to various devices etc. I know if they have a mainstream updated browser they can likely use the tool. No endless requests for help, no mystery issues to solve, things just work.
> it should come with similar permission requests that use of microphone or camera do.
Such permissions requests have been associated I think exclusively with input and output, not computation.
Lot of downvote for my curiosity
Honest question: Can someone explain to me why people are excited about WebGPU and WASM and similar technologies?
To me, one of the greatest things about the web is that the DOM is malleable in that you can right click -> view source -> change things. This is dead in an era where the server just sends you a compiled WASM dll.
It seems to me that the inevitable result of things like WASM and WebGPU will be "rich media web 4.0 applications" that are just DRM, crypto miners, and spyware compiled so that they're more difficult to circumvent, and delivered via the browser. An excuse to write web apps with poor performance because "well the user just needs a stronger GPU". It seems like an express train back to the bad old days of every website being written in flash.
I honestly cannot see the upsides of these technologies. Is it gaming? Why would I want to play a 3D game in my fucking browser of all places? That's a strict downgrade in almost every way I can think of. Why would anyone want that? Is it "AI"? Why would I want to run an LLM in the browser, I could just run it natively for better performance?
All I can see and have seen over the last several years is a steady parade of new technologies that will make the internet (and in some cases the lives of every day people) objectively worse while enriching a handful of big tech douchebags.
Why are we going down this path? Who is asking for this stuff? Why the fuck would I want to expose my GPU to a website?
> Why would I want to play a 3D game in my fucking browser of all places?
To provide users a way to instantly play a game without having to download all assets at once. Give developers a potential way to avoid app store royalties of up to 30% on desktop or mobile. With wgpu in rust, you can also target WebGPU as a shared 3d runtime that will run across OS's natively rather than having to target Vulkan, Metal, and DirectX.
> Why would I want to run an LLM in the browser, I could just run it natively for better performance?
What about users who don't know how to download a model and run it locally? I would argue this is the vast majority of users in the world. Also, this specific use case is probably not going to be generalized with WebGPU yet due to model sizes, but rather other APIs like the Prompt API in Chrome which will use Gemini Nano embedded into the browser (assume it will eventually get standardized). https://developer.chrome.com/docs/ai/built-in-apis
I agree with you that WASM and WebGPU will be used for adware, targeting, and spyware - but if you don't want to use them, you should disable them in your browser settings - there's definitely value add for other users even if you can't see any benefits.
Browsers will never run games that aren't toys or use very simple assets in a way that doesn't completely suck. High quality assets need gigabytes of data. You either require users to download all the assets upfront (the thing we're trying to avoid) or streaming the assets dynamically.
You end up having to re-implement steam to keep a local copy of the assets on the client device yourself, expect browsers to do the same to manage caching the gigabytes of data transparently, or design your game around a very slow storage device or use tiny assets.
Flash games worked because they fit very nicely into the 'tiny assets' category.
> To provide users a way to instantly play a game without having to download all assets at once
No need for the web in that case, which is inefficient. You can do with like those 1MB installers and stream those assets.
> but if you don't want to use them, you should disable them in your browser settings
Which the majority won't. People don't even go in their phone settings, apart from connecting to WiFi and changing their wallpaper.
I don’t want to download a random executable from some unknown source. However, I trust the browser sandbox.
> I don’t want to download a random executable from some unknown source
Why would you do that?
---
There's few applications that warrant having direct access to the GPU and other devices. And for those, a native app would be a much efficient way (for the user).
yeah but users don't care about technical efficiency, they care about having seamless experiences that aren't interrupted by long downloads, app/context switching, and loading screens.
Which the web doesn't provide. Try opening Figma and Sketch at the same time or Mail.app and Gmail. Google Doc is closer to Wordpad than Libreoffice.
>To provide users a way to instantly play a game without having to download all assets at once
There's a reason QuakeLive didn't catch on and it's because streaming resources to the player makes for awful UX.
>What about users who don't know how to download a model and run it locally?
Those users also don't know how to compile MS Word from source but they have been getting along just fine with installers.
The ability to paste a URL into a browser and have that be everything you need to do to play a game is pretty compelling for many kinds of games.
That’s what made flash games so big back in the day.
URLs can also be mapped into native applications, it is a matter of the right OS.
https://developer.android.com/training/app-links
Application streaming sorts that out, with much better tooling for 3D development.
For that matter, why would you expose your CPU to a website? Or your monitor? It could show you anything! ;)
Maybe you are not be aware of the number of good web apps that use some WebGL under the hood? You might be using office applications in your browser already that use WebGL when it’s available, and the reason is it makes things faster, more responsive, more scalable, and more efficient. Same would go for WebGPU.
There’s no reason to imagine that the web will do bad things with your resources that you didn’t ask for and don’t have control over. There have been hiccups in the past, but they got fixed. Awareness is higher now, and if there are hiccups, they’ll get fixed.
>There’s no reason to imagine that the web will do bad things with your resources that you didn’t ask for and don’t have control over.
The web is like this right now. Why would things magically become a utopia?
> There’s no reason to imagine that the web will do bad things with your resources that you didn’t ask for and don’t have control over.
Read some security update news from browser vendors and vulnerability researcher posts. There's some weak signals about vendors acknowledging the difficulty of securing the enormous attack surface of browsers built on unsafe foundations, eg MS "enhanced security mode" and Apple "lockdown mode".
I don't mind the browser using the GPU to speed up graphical operations. But I do mind random sites and apps going further than that. Native apps have better access, but there's an higher selection criteria than just opening a URL.
> Can someone explain to me why people are excited about WebGPU and WASM and similar technologies?
WebAssembly brings all languages to the browser. Why shouldn't I be able to use C#, Rust, Go, Dart, Python, or whatever else in browser?
WebAssembly brings better performance. That's what Webamp found: https://jordaneldredge.com/blog/speeding-up-winamps-music-vi...
And what Amazon found: https://www.amazon.science/blog/how-prime-video-updates-its-...
And what Google found: https://web.dev/case-studies/google-sheets-wasmgc
Why make things perform worse when they can perform better?
Why shouldn't I be able to make an application that compiles to the Windows, macOS, and Linux desktops and also to the browser? This one does: https://bandysc.github.io/AvaloniaVisualBasic6/
It's interesting to me you don't like any WebGL websites. I remember first trying Minecraft Java in the browser and it was awesome.
Runescape! I grew up playing Runescape! How could anyone not want games like Runescape to exist?!?
Why do you think wasm is harder to circumvent? The only way to instantiate a wasm module in the browser is through (drum roll) javascript. Install noscript if you're worried. The days of view source -> edit are basically over anyway due to every site's 1MB+ minified JS blobs.
> Why would I want to run an LLM in the browser, I could just run it natively for better performance?
Why would you try out a new app in a sandboxed browser, when instead you could give it complete access to your entire computer?
If the app can run arbitrary code on my GPU it's not exactly sandboxed, is it?
Are you launching Chrome with --disable-gpu-sandbox? If not, it's sandboxed.
If websites can run compute shaders on my hardware, that's not a sandbox.
Sandboxing is about preventing code from accessing data it's not supposed to. Data like files or memory belonging to other tabs or other processes. Or data streams like your webcam or microphone. Data outside of its, well, sandbox.
So how are compute shaders accessing data they're not supposed to? How do you think they're escaping the sandbox?
It seems like you're just making up your own definitions now because you don't like the tech. What do think a sandbox is, exactly? And what do you think Chrome's GPU sandbox does, if it's not a sandbox?
If websites can run JavaScript on your hardware, is that not sandboxed?
why would you want to expose your cpu to a website? why would you want to expose your keyboard to a website? why would you want to use a website at all? why don’t you go outside, read a book, look at a duck, and pick a flower instead? do we exist just to complain? is this meaning?
You should try Chillin(https://chillin.online), browser-based video editor. Powered by WebGL, WASM, and WebCodecs, Chillin provides a full suite of video editing capabilities on the web. Trust me, Chillin is smoother than most native video editors, even on mobile. I believe Chillin can leverage WebGPU to bring even more powerful rendering features.
Yes, running LLMs on the web may not have significant advantages due to the speed limitations, but other models, such as those for bg removal, speech-to-subtitles, and translation, could become practical and efficient thanks to WebGPU.
Users wanted an app sandbox.
HTML documents were sort-of like an app sandbox.
Evolution is now adding an app sandbox to HTML.
There is little we can do to resist it. I don't like it either - I hate HTML.
Figma, my dude