I grew up on an island. If you see something that looks insane it's almost always an economic distortion as a result of the high cost of getting stuff in and our or an economic distortion as a result of government doing something absurd to protect the big local industry (tourism, retirement, etc).
For the longest time they wouldn't let a scrap metal place exist. Then eventually someone just started running one accessory to another business via a loophole and all the metal trash that adorned the ditches in secluded areas just vanished and didn't get replaced.
Interesting that they're being described as "abandoned" there. I thought they might be getting sold to locals who have plausible deniability that they're using them for construction work.
Why abandon a working vehicle? Surely the construction projects on Hydra aren't exclusively worked by end-of-life vehicles. And it's only about 3km from mainland Greece so it can't be prohibitively expensive to ship them back (even if they are end of life, they should have much more scrappage value than the shipping cost).
Even on the mainland, vehicles and equipment are abandoned. At least in the US, if you drive through the countryside, every vehicle and truck that was ever used by someone is parked somewhere. If you go on a hike, and go through land that was once used for something, you'll find piles of old equipment, vehicles, materials, etc. It's not all that noticeable because there's usually much more land than the amount of stuff piling up. Even in my residential neighborhood, there's probably an inoperable car parked in a driveway every other block.
I don't think that things are always a quantum transition from "in use" to "abandoned," but a gradual decline. Stuff is just parked temporarily in case it's needed in the near future, or with the hope of selling it, and then gradually decays to the point of being inoperable. An abandoned car or truck won't just start. If a machine like a bobcat or bulldozer needs to be moved, it may require a running engine and hydraulics. Someone has to know how to get it going. Paying someone to haul it away may be expensive. If it's owned by a business, the ownership may gradually become unknown, especially in an informal economy.
It could be a book keeping thing. Sometimes, it works out better by the pencil pushers if something is written off as a loss. Consider the expense of having to send a barge/ship to the island to transport it back from the island to somewhere else. Then they could attempt to sell it. Would that sale be profitable?
you have to do the math on shipping costs vs how much can be made. i'd venture its not profitable in a reasonable amount of time. you then have to have someone skilled to part it out. store the pieces. line up buyers. all of that comes at an expense.
In most ports that would be worth it as there’s already established commerce routes that can transport vehicles. But there’s no vehicle-carrying ferry going to hydra. So you’d need to arrange one especially, which probably would cost a ton, certainly several thousands and I’d guess much more
Or, once sufficient junk has accumulated, a for-purpose boat could come over and transport the lot. Also, there must already be ways of getting garbage and construction debris out.
I suspect the best approach would be a boat that would transport the stuff not three miles, but a longer distance to where scrap could be more easily handled. This would amortize loading/unloading costs over more miles. I would not be at all surprised if such centralized waste handling ports already existed; there are lots of islands there generating a constant stream of refuse.
They haven't done it yet, which would indicate that it's complicated, where is the nearest scrap dealer that would take the stuff? The Eastern Peloponnese is thinly populated, the nearest town is Nauplion with ~ 20 k inhabitants, else there is always Athens. Now you have an interagency coordination problem, Hydra town council would have to get together with its counterpart in Athens, acquire the title, collect them, charter a ferry and lowbed truck at the destination and assemble a crew get rid of the junk. Until sufficient tourists complain it's not going to happen.
The sentence is unfinished. They are abandoned, and unlike nearly everywhere else, left and not collected. There's probably a daily ferry and/or barge designed in part for this. Some of the vehicles could be sold to at least 10 vendors that would happily collect them. There's only 2,000 people, so maybe a handful of municipal employees. And there's probably four hours of paperwork to dispose of a vehicle. They probably want the original businesses to appear and collect them and pay like 10 years of fines.
There are many ferries to Hydra, but none take cars.
My guess it is pain in arse to bring car in our out of hydra. Once someone pays arm and leg for transportation, they will keep car there forever. Even if its used for construction once a year.
Hydra is normal town with normal needs. And local population of pensioners will not haul shopping, furniture, or building materials on their backs!
One of my favorite things when I was here was seeing an Amazon Prime logo on the saddlebag of a donkey. That struck me as a very weird collision of old and new worlds
I wonder what their reasoning is behind banning non-powered bikes? It's got very steep hills, so there's a good chance that bicycles wouldn't be very practical, but seems strange to ban them.
Bikes, even muscular ones, can be annoying to pedestrians on thin hiking paths. My take is that even if they allow one/a few/a capped number, then it's out of the bottle, and people will try to game the system one way or another
How strange that a non-electric bike now needs a special prefix. To me "bike" is the traditional kind and "e-bike" is the motorized kind. Has it really tilted that far? Not where I live, where probably 10-20% of bikes are electric. So far.
I’m not jesting. Lucky enough to have been years ago. It’s fairly steep from center of island to coast with a 6+ ft drop to the water around much of it, so it wouldn’t take much.
> “A paradise for walkers and nature lovers.” That’s how the Municipality describes Hydra on its website, promoting the island’s uniqueness, where the movement of all wheeled vehicles is prohibited by law. However, laws are made to be broken—especially when there is no one responsible or interested in enforcing them. Thus, this otherwise beautiful island, rich in archaeological and natural treasures and boasting unique architecture, has become filled with cars, motorcycles, bicycles, and of course, scooters, which are trendier than walking.
Sounds like the usual "humans want pretended virtues, and laws are for the little people" deal to me.
I grew up on an island. If you see something that looks insane it's almost always an economic distortion as a result of the high cost of getting stuff in and our or an economic distortion as a result of government doing something absurd to protect the big local industry (tourism, retirement, etc).
For the longest time they wouldn't let a scrap metal place exist. Then eventually someone just started running one accessory to another business via a loophole and all the metal trash that adorned the ditches in secluded areas just vanished and didn't get replaced.
Interesting that they're being described as "abandoned" there. I thought they might be getting sold to locals who have plausible deniability that they're using them for construction work.
Why abandon a working vehicle? Surely the construction projects on Hydra aren't exclusively worked by end-of-life vehicles. And it's only about 3km from mainland Greece so it can't be prohibitively expensive to ship them back (even if they are end of life, they should have much more scrappage value than the shipping cost).
Even on the mainland, vehicles and equipment are abandoned. At least in the US, if you drive through the countryside, every vehicle and truck that was ever used by someone is parked somewhere. If you go on a hike, and go through land that was once used for something, you'll find piles of old equipment, vehicles, materials, etc. It's not all that noticeable because there's usually much more land than the amount of stuff piling up. Even in my residential neighborhood, there's probably an inoperable car parked in a driveway every other block.
I don't think that things are always a quantum transition from "in use" to "abandoned," but a gradual decline. Stuff is just parked temporarily in case it's needed in the near future, or with the hope of selling it, and then gradually decays to the point of being inoperable. An abandoned car or truck won't just start. If a machine like a bobcat or bulldozer needs to be moved, it may require a running engine and hydraulics. Someone has to know how to get it going. Paying someone to haul it away may be expensive. If it's owned by a business, the ownership may gradually become unknown, especially in an informal economy.
It could be a book keeping thing. Sometimes, it works out better by the pencil pushers if something is written off as a loss. Consider the expense of having to send a barge/ship to the island to transport it back from the island to somewhere else. Then they could attempt to sell it. Would that sale be profitable?
Even if that were the case, wouldn't whoever ended up owning it make a profit by sending it back for scrapping/parting out?
you have to do the math on shipping costs vs how much can be made. i'd venture its not profitable in a reasonable amount of time. you then have to have someone skilled to part it out. store the pieces. line up buyers. all of that comes at an expense.
So, how much does shipping a ton 3 miles by water cost? The scrap value of a vehicle is maybe $200/ton (more if valuable parts can be salvaged.)
Shipping by truck in the US costs somewhere around $0.10/ton-mile.
In most ports that would be worth it as there’s already established commerce routes that can transport vehicles. But there’s no vehicle-carrying ferry going to hydra. So you’d need to arrange one especially, which probably would cost a ton, certainly several thousands and I’d guess much more
Or, once sufficient junk has accumulated, a for-purpose boat could come over and transport the lot. Also, there must already be ways of getting garbage and construction debris out.
I suspect the best approach would be a boat that would transport the stuff not three miles, but a longer distance to where scrap could be more easily handled. This would amortize loading/unloading costs over more miles. I would not be at all surprised if such centralized waste handling ports already existed; there are lots of islands there generating a constant stream of refuse.
They haven't done it yet, which would indicate that it's complicated, where is the nearest scrap dealer that would take the stuff? The Eastern Peloponnese is thinly populated, the nearest town is Nauplion with ~ 20 k inhabitants, else there is always Athens. Now you have an interagency coordination problem, Hydra town council would have to get together with its counterpart in Athens, acquire the title, collect them, charter a ferry and lowbed truck at the destination and assemble a crew get rid of the junk. Until sufficient tourists complain it's not going to happen.
The sentence is unfinished. They are abandoned, and unlike nearly everywhere else, left and not collected. There's probably a daily ferry and/or barge designed in part for this. Some of the vehicles could be sold to at least 10 vendors that would happily collect them. There's only 2,000 people, so maybe a handful of municipal employees. And there's probably four hours of paperwork to dispose of a vehicle. They probably want the original businesses to appear and collect them and pay like 10 years of fines.
There are many ferries to Hydra, but none take cars.
My guess it is pain in arse to bring car in our out of hydra. Once someone pays arm and leg for transportation, they will keep car there forever. Even if its used for construction once a year.
Hydra is normal town with normal needs. And local population of pensioners will not haul shopping, furniture, or building materials on their backs!
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One of my favorite things when I was here was seeing an Amazon Prime logo on the saddlebag of a donkey. That struck me as a very weird collision of old and new worlds
Hydra is fairly unique in that bikes, not just motorized vehicles, are prohibited on the island.
I wonder what their reasoning is behind banning non-powered bikes? It's got very steep hills, so there's a good chance that bicycles wouldn't be very practical, but seems strange to ban them.
Bikes, even muscular ones, can be annoying to pedestrians on thin hiking paths. My take is that even if they allow one/a few/a capped number, then it's out of the bottle, and people will try to game the system one way or another
What is a muscular bike?
Presumably the poster wanted to differentiate e-bikes (electrical motor assisted) with fully human powered (traditional) bikes.
The type powered by meat motors
I've started calling them "acoustic" bikes, like non-electric guitars. Not technically accurate, but folks almost always get it and smile.
Another name: bio bikes
Analog bikes
How strange that a non-electric bike now needs a special prefix. To me "bike" is the traditional kind and "e-bike" is the motorized kind. Has it really tilted that far? Not where I live, where probably 10-20% of bikes are electric. So far.
If Ford Mustang was a bike it would be a Richi Hulk
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTB/s/qBcUDZ7rqd
I was going to point out how bad the last few decades of mustang have looked.
Then I saw your link. Yes. You’ve picked the right comparison.
Narrow streets and very steep slopes there is absolutely no way to safely cycle anywhere there.
Could be a speed limit thing.
I doubt that they have speed limits if they don't allow motorised vehicles.
I agree, If everyone is on foot there is no need for regulating the speed.
Some places actually have pedestrian speed limits.
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Only donkeys, there are a few vehicles tho the garbage collection “truck” being one of them.
Push them into the water?
You jest, but this almost certainly already happens - but out of sight, out of mind.
I’m not jesting. Lucky enough to have been years ago. It’s fairly steep from center of island to coast with a 6+ ft drop to the water around much of it, so it wouldn’t take much.
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> “A paradise for walkers and nature lovers.” That’s how the Municipality describes Hydra on its website, promoting the island’s uniqueness, where the movement of all wheeled vehicles is prohibited by law. However, laws are made to be broken—especially when there is no one responsible or interested in enforcing them. Thus, this otherwise beautiful island, rich in archaeological and natural treasures and boasting unique architecture, has become filled with cars, motorcycles, bicycles, and of course, scooters, which are trendier than walking.
Sounds like the usual "humans want pretended virtues, and laws are for the little people" deal to me.